13:30:25 From Freya Anderson : Good morning, or afternoon as the case may be! 13:30:58 From Kris Kasianovitz : Morning! (for me) 13:31:05 From Tammy Ravas : Hi Freya! Hi Everyone! 13:31:48 From Lisa Young (she/her) : Good Afternoon from St. Louis area! 13:32:11 From Patrick Newell : Good morning, everyone! I have a meeting at 11 (our time) so will need to leave the presentation early (but will look for the recording on the archives). 13:32:49 From Billie Peterson-Lugo : audience can hear me. At that point I’ll ask you to confirm in the chat window that you can hear us. 13:33:44 From Tammy Ravas : I thought it started at 11:30. 13:33:46 From Robin Sinn : because someone shared the presenter's link and appt times 13:33:51 From Steve Sears (JHU) : oops I thought it was at 1:30 13:33:54 From Lisa Young (she/her) : I thought it started at 12:30 my time too! 13:33:59 From Billie Peterson-Lugo : Let me try this again -- Welcome to CopyTalk! We’ll start at the top of the hour. Five minutes before we start, I'll do a sound check to assure the audience can hear me. At that point I’ll ask you to confirm in the chat window that you can hear us. 13:34:01 From Kris Kasianovitz : the calendar invite as it came in on my outlook at 10:30 13:34:12 From Kris Kasianovitz : was at.. 13:34:13 From Patrick Newell : I thought it started now — I’ll have to watch the recording. 13:34:48 From Kris Kasianovitz : i’ll log back in at 11amPST 13:34:51 From Sandra Aya Enimil : Someone shared a calendar invite for this time. lol. I'll have to check out the recording I have a conflict at the real start time. 13:37:02 From Sara Benson (she, her, hers) : Hello everyone! We start at the hour, so you are a bit early :) 13:39:27 From Sara Benson (she, her, hers) : Welcome to CopyTalk! We’ll start at the top of the hour. Five minutes before we start, I'll do a sound check to assure the audience can hear me. At that point I’ll ask you to confirm in the chat window that you can hear us. 13:41:31 From Yuan Li : Thanks, Sara. I assume it will be recorded as it was always, right? I have a conflict at 2pm. I will have to watch the recording later. 13:46:59 From crussell@alawash.org : we will record! 13:47:00 From Gail Barton : Hi from AAA - Auburn University, AL! 13:53:15 From Kyle K. Courtney : Am I early or late? 13:53:49 From Yuan Li : You are early. You have time to get a cup of coffee :) 13:54:03 From Yuan Li : It will start at 2pm 13:54:16 From Kyle K. Courtney : Great! 13:54:26 From Freya Anderson : Or at 10 am for those in Alaska :) 13:54:56 From Freya Anderson : Oh, hi Kyle! 13:55:33 From Freya Anderson : I typed too fast and missed who had asked. Oops! 13:56:12 From Kytara Christophe-State Library of Louisiana : yes 13:56:14 From Tammy Ravas : Yes 13:56:15 From Jenna Guenther : Yes 13:56:15 From Karen Grondin : yes 13:56:16 From smurphy13 : yes! 13:56:17 From Bethany : yes 13:56:21 From maggie cummings : audio, check! 13:56:22 From Miriam Wnuk : good 13:56:23 From jpowell : yes 13:56:24 From Peggy Tahir : yes 13:56:27 From Keith Palmateer : Yes 13:56:28 From Eileen Cravedi : yes 13:57:32 From Vikki Yates : Yes 13:59:05 From Noah Beckman to crussell@alawash.org(Direct Message) : Hello, a question - will this presentation be captioned? 13:59:53 From crussell@alawash.org : Yes we have captioning on 14:01:39 From Ray Pun (he/him) : Hello all! Looking forward to this conversation! 14:01:58 From Noah Beckman to crussell@alawash.org(Direct Message) : I don't see the button in the menu bar 14:03:36 From crussell@alawash.org to Noah Beckman(Direct Message) : noah I don't know why it is not working but we will have a transcript I can send you I apologize 14:04:01 From Noah Beckman to crussell@alawash.org(Direct Message) : along with the recording, if possible. 14:04:10 From Noah Beckman to crussell@alawash.org(Direct Message) : Thank you 14:04:32 From Billie Peterson-Lugo : Just a reminder to use the chat function to ask any questions you might have. Thanks!! 14:04:36 From crussell@alawash.org to Noah Beckman(Direct Message) : ssned me your email address 14:04:44 From Noah Beckman to crussell@alawash.org(Direct Message) : Noah.beckman@gallaudet.edu 14:05:03 From crussell@alawash.org to Noah Beckman(Direct Message) : got it 14:05:12 From Noah Beckman to crussell@alawash.org(Direct Message) : thanks! 14:05:57 From Zehra 'ZeeZee' Zamin - LOUIS : Is this session being recorded? Will we have access to it? 14:06:33 From crussell@alawash.org to Noah Beckman(Direct Message) : We are recording. we will announce when it is archived 14:06:49 From Billie Peterson-Lugo : Yes, this session is being recorded. It takes a while for the recording to process, but we'll announce it when it's available. 14:08:04 From Zehra 'ZeeZee' Zamin - LOUIS : Thank you!! 14:11:31 From Tom Keays : will we get a link for the slides? 14:11:54 From Billie Peterson-Lugo : I believe we'll have a way to make the slides available. 14:12:02 From crussell@alawash.org : Yes slides if the presenters agree 14:19:49 From Jenny Watson : Hey, I can hear someone whispering. :) 14:20:14 From Sara Benson (she, her, hers) to crussell@alawash.org(Direct Message) : Can you as host mute all participants other than Meg and myself??? 14:20:59 From Kyle K. Courtney : "Suggestion" is better than "rule" for sure! 14:21:19 From crussell@alawash.org to Sara Benson (she, her, hers)(Direct Message) : I could but Meg will be mute for 5-10 seconds Do you still hear the noise 14:21:21 From Sara Benson (she, her, hers) : Ha ha ha, yes. I'd say to just ignore them, though :) 14:21:32 From Sara Benson (she, her, hers) to crussell@alawash.org(Direct Message) : Sound went away, thanks! 14:21:47 From crussell@alawash.org to Sara Benson (she, her, hers)(Direct Message) : Thank God! 14:22:00 From Lorelei Sterling : So the supplying library doesn’t need to keep track of what we send? 14:22:16 From Lorelei Sterling : I should say, how many articles we send from a single title? 14:23:45 From Kyle K. Courtney : Hear, hear! CONTU is not law! 14:24:11 From Laura Burtle : !! 14:24:11 From Brigitte Galauner : My library keeps track of the articles we lend if they were published within the past 5 years in the event that we surpass the 5 articles from a single publication 14:24:29 From Tom Bruno : +1 Kyle Courtney 14:24:45 From Lorelei Sterling : But it is the borrowing library that needs to track this according to the guidelines, right? 14:25:04 From Sara Benson (she, her, hers) : Correct. 14:25:24 From Lorelei Sterling : So we as the lending library can stop tracking this? 14:25:57 From Cindy Kristof : You were never required to track lending 14:26:01 From Lorelei Sterling : thanks! 14:26:17 From Cindy Kristof : Of course you can keep stats and records 14:26:57 From Billie Peterson-Lugo : Yes. . . using the Guidelines, you only need to track those copies that you borrow from other libraries. 14:27:00 From Dawnelle Ricciardi : Copyright fees are frequently over $50! 14:27:11 From crussell@alawash.org : Good data! 14:27:29 From Tammy Ravas : Yes, very good data! 14:27:36 From crussell@alawash.org : highest fee you ever paid? 14:27:50 From Dawnelle Ricciardi : $68 14:27:54 From Keith Palmateer : $76 14:27:56 From Lauren Hamm : $300 14:28:01 From Tiffany T. : I've never paid it, but I have one that is $102 14:28:22 From Cindy Kristof : You mean highest fee I refused to pay? :-) 14:28:34 From Peggy : :) 14:28:47 From crussell@alawash.org : thanks this is helpful for rulemakings, testimony etc 14:28:59 From Sally Krash : journal costs top out much higher than 1795 14:29:26 From Tiffany T. : That's the bottom end for electronic journals in the health sciences 14:30:53 From anupama.pal@yu.edu : Recommendations 14:30:53 From Tammy Ravas : recommendations 14:30:55 From Jim Elliott, FSU ILL : Recommendations 14:30:57 From Miriam : Recommendations 14:31:00 From Leanna Pagano (she/her/hers) : Recommendations 14:31:52 From Kyle K. Courtney : Boooooooo CCC! 14:31:59 From Kim Carter : :( 14:32:03 From Dawn Mick - she/her/hers : Agreed @Kyle! 14:32:33 From Tammy Ravas : Is there an eye-roll emoji? 14:32:41 From Jenny Watson : Booooooooooooo! 14:32:50 From Kris Kasianovitz : Big THUMBS DOWN! 14:32:54 From Kyle K. Courtney : Copyright on Campus: "Your responsibility is to pay us" 14:33:03 From crussell@alawash.org : CCC developed that Jane character after we created Lola lola btw 14:33:04 From Tammy Ravas : @Kyle pretty much. 14:33:22 From Tammy Ravas : @Carrie really?! 14:33:31 From Tammy Ravas : Wow. 14:33:35 From crussell@alawash.org : Yes, true!! 14:33:43 From crussell@alawash.org : but ideas are PD 14:33:45 From Cindy Kristof : We need a Lola vs. Jane fight 14:33:55 From Tammy Ravas : @Cindy- I know right! 14:34:12 From Troy Christenson : CCC is a for profit corporation so their objective is to get as much money as possible 14:34:34 From Amanda Wakaruk : @Cindy could model it after GLOW to exercise fair use rights :) 14:34:53 From Amanda Wakaruk : (GLOW - wrestling show) 14:34:57 From crussell@alawash.org : correct Troy! Take a look at how much money they take in each year. LOTS 14:34:57 From Cindy Kristof : @Amanda yes! 14:35:01 From Tammy Ravas : @Amanda XD! 14:35:53 From Cindy Kristof : CCC preys off of the fear associated with copyright law 14:36:29 From Kyle K. Courtney : CCC was initially founded as a non-profit, but then lost their federal tax-exempt status in the 1980's. So they are For-Profit under federal law, non-profit under NY state law. Weird. 14:37:49 From Robin Sinn : Given the changing practices of authors retaining rights, even among some subscription journals, the CONTU suggestions don't make a lot of sense now. 14:38:27 From Tammy Ravas : That’s a good point @Robin 14:38:48 From Jim Elliott, FSU ILL : @Robin, agreed. 14:39:35 From Billie Peterson-Lugo : Much good discussion going on in this chat -- have any questions come to mind for the presenters? If so, be sure to ask them! 14:39:42 From Mike Paxton (they/them) : CONTU is drastically outdated; what made/makes it useful is have an accepted standard (keeps lawyers happy, speeds processing, can be built into ILL software, reduces Fair Use documentation, determines who can make fair use assessment in many union contracts, etc.). Would there be value in creating a new set of national guidelines, instead of saying each library is on their own for section 108 compliance? How could we make this happen? 14:40:58 From Robin Sinn : @Mike - good question. It's the workflow/speed issue vs. considering individual requests. 14:41:05 From crussell@alawash.org : The library community could write their own guidelines although best practices is a better term 14:41:24 From Robin Sinn : And has anyone asked ILLiad and other ILL systems if they will remove the CONTU programming? 14:41:59 From Mike Paxton (they/them) : In ILLIad it can be turned on/off in the customization manager, and the years to consider can be adjusted if you leave it on 14:42:17 From Freya Anderson : @Robin, isn't ILLiad based on OCLC? I think that would probably be the place to start. 14:42:23 From Miriam Wnuk : It annoys me when another library conditionalizes a request because I say I mark CCL and not CCG...grr 14:42:23 From Tom Bruno : What makes CONTU increasingly irrelevant is that book chapter requests are often just as prevalent as journal article requests. 14:42:23 From Robin Sinn : Thanks! 14:42:44 From Jennifer O'Leary : Agree Tom! 14:42:53 From Cindy Kristof : @Miriam - agreed 14:43:00 From Megan Gaffney : Yes, lots of ways to "de-CONTU" ILLiad :) 14:43:18 From Emily Rose Mineart : @Miriam this is what concerns me. There seems to be a lot of policing on the part of lenders who will refuse/conditionalize requests if they believe that you didn't properly label something CCG or CCL. 14:43:34 From Lorelei Sterling : What is CCG and CCL? 14:43:52 From Kyle K. Courtney : In Illiad and other ILL software you can specify ("check the box) CCL (compliance with copyright law) rather than CCG (compliance with copyright guidelines). 14:43:57 From Troy Christenson : We had CCG removed from our requesting all are CCL 14:43:59 From Lorelei Sterling : thanks! 14:44:12 From Sue Gardner : CCG = CONTU, CCL = copyright law 14:44:48 From Cindy Kristof : @Troy - do you get questioned by other libraries on CCLs? 14:45:08 From Jacob Fontenot : How should we calculate how much a single ILL transaction costs, to compared to1970s ILL cost, given free reciprocal, services like RapidILL, and pay per article services? 14:45:09 From Troy Christenson : No 14:45:23 From Cindy Kristof : @Troy good 14:45:23 From Troy Christenson : ILLiad Copyright: Issues and Answers Troy Christenson University of Texas at Arlington “This is an original manuscript / preprint of an article published by Taylor & Francis in the Journal of Interlibrary Loan, Document Delivery & Electronic Reserve” on June 1, 2019, available online: http://www.tandfonline.com/10.1080/1072303X.2019.1616030.” 14:45:51 From Tom Keays : are these recommendations documented anywhere? e.g., on the ALA website? 14:45:52 From Kyle K. Courtney : If a library dumps CONTU and a significant number of articles have been requested from a journal, who determines whether the amount of ILL borrowing is outside the scope of §107 (fair use) and §108(g)? 14:45:55 From Tom Bruno : @Troy interesting. I have seen some institutions actually REJECT a request if we put CCL instead of CCG (not naming names) 14:46:07 From Freya Anderson : It seems like ILL costs may be much more varied, depending on library size, type, focus, etc. 14:46:07 From Emily Rose Mineart : Same, @Tom 14:46:08 From Cindy Kristof : So have I 14:46:15 From Jim Elliott, FSU ILL : @troy, I get a 404 error 14:46:24 From Kyle K. Courtney : QUESTION: If a library dumps CONTU and a significant number of articles have been requested from a journal, who determines whether the amount of ILL borrowing is outside the scope of §107 (fair use) and §108(g)? 14:46:30 From Mike Paxton (they/them) : @Jim Same - take the period off of the end 14:46:41 From Sarah - Hewes Library : Will we have access to a recording of this webinar? It would not let me log in at the beginning of the session. 14:46:53 From crussell@alawash.org : the community decides!! 14:47:28 From crussell@alawash.org : we are recording. we have a limit of 300 participants 14:47:38 From Laura Burtle : If my Elsevier license has a CONTU clause, can I lend to your library that has its system set to CCL and has a "we don't follow CONTU statement on your website? 14:48:41 From Troy Christenson : https://libraries.uta.edu/services/interlibrary-loan/copyright-compliance 14:48:46 From crussell@alawash.org : Do folks want to talk about this more after the webinar? 14:49:03 From Cindy Kristof : @Carrie...would like that 14:49:06 From Tammy Ravas : I would like to but I have an appointment at 1:15. 14:49:08 From Freya Anderson : Using CONTU doesn't mean we can't use Fair Use, though, does it? We use CONTU most of the time, for ease in processing, but do go to Fair Use for those more nuanced situations. 14:49:21 From crussell@alawash.org : sometime in January 14:49:21 From Jim Elliott, FSU ILL : @Mike Paxton -- thank you, it worked. 14:49:35 From Miriam Wnuk : @Kyle my former library had me run reports every 6 months to review the use of each of our titles and see how often we were requesting from journals. We evaluating the cost of those journal subscriptions compared to requests and then how much the Reprints Desk or CCC would be. Taking that information, we would decide if our request is equal to a subscription. If so, we purchase the journal. If not, we continue to use ILL. 14:49:41 From Billie Peterson-Lugo : The White Paper with the recommendations can be found at: https://www.arl.org/blog/white-paper-encourages-libraries-to-reevaluate-use-of-contu-guidelines-in-interlibrary-loan/ 14:49:43 From Troy Christenson : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333549358_ILLiad_Copyright_Issues_and_Answers 14:49:53 From Kim Carter : Presenters: would you see any value in having separate standards/guidelines for print vs electronic resources/subscriptions? 14:51:12 From Freya Anderson : It just seems like so often the people involved in day to day ILL don't have the time or inclination to deal with copyright nuance. 14:51:30 From Dawn Mick - she/her/hers : @Freya - totally agree. They also don't have the knowledge. 14:51:30 From Tammy Ravas : To the presenters: do you know of a workflow where ILL might directly ask the author of a journal article if they maintain the rights to their work? 14:51:36 From Robin Sinn : +1 Freya 14:51:47 From Freya Anderson : +1 Tammy 14:51:52 From Carol Kochan : True, but you can keep track of copyright and then make the decisions in bulk later on whether you need to pay. 14:51:52 From Kyle K. Courtney : QUESTION: Let's say we start embracing 108(g) and stop paying as many fees $$$ to the CCC under CONTU. Will they notice the significantly lower $$$ and come snooping around. A lot of us have said that we pay CCC just enough to leave us alone (see Georgia State where they did not leave a library alone) 14:51:56 From Tom Bruno : Not to engage in publisher-shaming, but electronic licensing terms which oblige lenders to verify that the borrower is complying with CONTU is squirrelly at best. 14:52:05 From Tiffany T. : @Freya yes, definitely. It's also presents a tracking nightmare 14:52:30 From crussell@alawash.org : yes, they would snoop 14:52:30 From Orla Mejia : you also should factor in the man-hours into the cost of a request 14:52:57 From crussell@alawash.org : document the snooping 14:53:01 From Dawn Mick - she/her/hers : +1 Orla 14:53:35 From Miriam Wnuk : There are times when you still have to pay CCC... Universities still need to pay copyright for class packets. Like if I needed to ILL an article for a course that is being put in a course shell I would still need to pay copyright right for the number of people who are in the class for accessing it. 14:53:45 From Freya Anderson : +1 Orla. Seems like we would need to have more librarian involvement in ILL without guidelines, which would increase costs. 14:54:05 From Laura Burtle : Kyle - suddenly we'll start hearing that ILL is competing with the article license market! 14:54:10 From Sunshine Carter (she/her) : Do you use journal list price when determining what would substitute for a subscription? Or the "normal" price libraries usually pay. 14:54:20 From Kyle K. Courtney : @Laura - Exactly! 14:55:44 From Jennifer O'Leary : Freya, we do the same! 14:55:47 From Troy Christenson : contract law supercedes copyright law 14:55:47 From Connie Karlen : my director would like there to be a way to predict CCC costs by say mid year. does anyone have a suggestion as to how one would be able to do this? 14:56:34 From Jen Salvo (she/her) : One fair use factor is purpose: what are your thoughts on teaching faculty using ILL to obtain course readings to then post to their online courses? In addition, what are your thoughts on library staff using ILL to obtain articles to then distribute to patrons from their own private accounts (in effect acting as conduits to obtain the materials)? 14:56:50 From Kyle K. Courtney : contract law does not always supercede copyright law 14:56:55 From Jacob Fontenot : + 1 Jen 14:56:55 From Jen Salvo (she/her) : (In terms of copyright fee obligations" 14:57:09 From Tammy Ravas : @Kyle can you give a few specifics on that? 14:57:31 From Cindy Kristof : +1 Tammy/Kyle 14:57:40 From Miriam Wnuk : @Connie... predicting CCC costs? You could look at historical data and see how much you spend over the same time each previous year and see if there is a pattern? But... with COVID... it's a not a normal year. 14:58:08 From Mike Paxton (they/them) : @Jen I tell faculty that what I have on the ILL coversheet as CYA doesn't stop them from doing their own fair use assessment, and share tools for doing that. Not as comfortable with direct to patron tho. 14:58:16 From crussell@alawash.org : if they ask for your first child, the contract is null 14:58:18 From Kyle K. Courtney : I can't type them all! 14:58:18 From Peggy : Thank you so much! This was helpful. 14:58:25 From Jenn Buch : Thank you! 14:58:29 From Kathy Williams : Thanks so much! 14:58:29 From Whitney Bates-Gomez : Thank you! 14:58:29 From Laura Burtle : Thank you! 14:58:30 From Timothy Vollmer (he/him) : So helpful thank you. 14:58:30 From Tammy Ravas : Thanks everyone! 14:58:31 From Ray Pun (he/him) : TY! 14:58:31 From Hannah Pollard : thank you! 14:58:31 From Kate Jones : thank you Meg & Sara- that was great! 14:58:31 From Kris Kasianovitz : thank you! 14:58:32 From Alison Mortensen-Hayes : Thank you! I am glad to hear this conversation more frequently! 14:58:32 From Emily Rose Mineart : Thank you! 14:58:32 From Rebecca Pagan : Excellent! Thank you. 14:58:33 From Meg Meiman : Thank you! 14:58:33 From Maryam Fakouri : Thank you all! 14:58:33 From Robin Sinn : THanks - so helpful. 14:58:34 From Jen Salvo (she/her) : @Mike we do something similar 14:58:34 From Liz Lang : Thank you! 14:58:36 From Cheri Smith : Thank you!! 14:58:36 From Jim Elliott, FSU ILL : Thank you! It was very helpful. 14:58:36 From Judy Gitlin : Thank you! 14:58:36 From Cassandra Palmore : Thank you! 14:58:37 From gmckenna2@mercy.edu : Thank you so much for all the information provided! 14:58:37 From msmall : Thank you! 14:58:37 From Karen Grondin : Thank you this was very helpful! 14:58:37 From Cindy Kristof : @Kyle LOL 14:58:38 From Jen Salvo (she/her) : Thank you! 14:58:39 From Sami Lockenour : Thank you so much! 14:58:41 From Tom Keays : awesome presentation 14:58:42 From Freya Anderson : Thanks all! Wonderful as always! 14:58:42 From JJ : ty 14:58:42 From Micheal Richins : Excellent session, thanks! 14:58:42 From mstemm01 : Thanks! 14:58:43 From Miriam : Thank you 14:58:43 From Joyce Kebert : Thank you!! 14:58:43 From Dawn Mick - she/her/hers : Thank you! 14:58:46 From jmat : Great info. Thanks! 14:58:46 From Jeannette Pierce : Thank you. 14:58:47 From Sarah - Hewes Library : Thank you! 14:58:47 From Kyle K. Courtney : Thanks all!! 14:58:47 From Veronica : Yes from Veronica 14:58:49 From Sarah : Thanks! 14:58:49 From Cindy Kristof : Thank you to all! This was great! 14:58:49 From Lorraine Quintero : Thank you! 14:58:50 From Kim Carter : thanks much! OTHER BEVERAGE preferred! 14:58:53 From Jennifer DeVito : Thank you! 14:58:56 From Lisa Young (she/her) : Thank you! so helpful! 14:58:57 From HIROKO HASHITANI : Thank you so much! 14:58:59 From Gail Williams : Thank you! Very informative! 14:58:59 From Connie Karlen : thank you 14:59:00 From Troy Christenson : Thank you all! 14:59:03 From Alison Mortensen-Hayes : Lol @ Kim 14:59:07 From Satasha Williams : Thank you! 14:59:08 From KatherineKlosek : Thank you! 14:59:12 From Zehra 'ZeeZee' Zamin - LOUIS : Excellent overview. Thanks !!! 14:59:16 From Mike Paxton (they/them) : Thanks! 14:59:22 From Hilary Fredette : Thanks 14:59:25 From Andrea Loigman : Thank you! 14:59:28 From Kathy Williams : Thank you!!