OnPoint Chat Archive October 30, 2008: Renewing & Negotiating Licenses

(11:00 a.m Pacific | 12:00 p.m. Mountain | 1:00 p.m. Central | 2:00 p.m. Eastern)

Convener: Becky Albitz, Electronic Resources and Copyright Librarian at Penn State and ACRL Copyright Committee Chair. Author of Licensing and Managing Electronic Resources Oxford: Chandos, 2008.

Negotiating licenses for electronic content remains a dynamic process. While librarians responsible for these activities share many concerns, they take different approaches based on the norms at their institutions and the needs of their user communities. Some posit that copyright is increasingly non-relevant because it is being superseded by contract law and that license agreements will continue to guide us in what we can do with online databases, rather than copyright. During this chat, participants may choose to discuss issues such as:

  • the relationship between fair use doctrine & contract law
  • approaching content producers about archiving rights
  • how to clarify ownership, access, and liability in the negotiation process
  • balancing the needs of users with the conditions set forth by vendors
  • conveying the terms and limitations to end users and frontline staff who work with them
  • new models, such as SERU, that provide an alternative to the current process of customer-by-customer, bi-laterally negotiated formal legal contracts

Suggested background reading:

Transcript Archive:

whlmeebo Hello, I'm here to attend the discussion on Renewing & Negotiating Licenses. I'm new to e-resources so I'm afraid I'll be listening in more than anything. Hope that's all right?

Kara_Malenfant Howdy everyone. Glad to see you all here for the Renewing & Negotiating Licenses ACRL OnPoint Chat. We start in about 13 mins.

Kara_Malenfant whlmeebo, that is just fine. You should feel free to join in and ask questions, too.

whlmeebo Okay, thank you Kara_Malenfant. :)

Kara_Malenfant It's a lovely, sunny 60 here in Chicago. Where are you all coming from?

stumpffmo Columbia, MO - beautiful day here as well.

dlharrington Hi, I am in Mobile, AL - beautiful and sunny here as well

dwfree Kara - Nice! I Haven't been outside since this AM.

marjones Stephenville TX and it's beautiful here too--if I can believe my window. Unfortunately, we need rain, so I am not too excited by <sigh> another beautiful day. Sad, no?

bgvalle Are we supposed to have audio as well as text?

Kara_Malenfant Nope, bhvalle, this is text only chat.

beckyalbitz Hi Everyone--welcome to this afternoon's chat--so glad you could join us!

beckyalbitz I know Kara is happy to see me :-)

robmor888 I'm in downtown Chicago--beautiful fall day.

Kara_Malenfant Yes! Welcome, oh great convener! Becky suggested this as a topic after our chat last spring on Section 108

beckyalbitz We have just a couple of minutes until we are scheduled to start--I hope you have your comments all ready to go!

libdlv Will a transcript of this session be available?

marjones I am new to this, so will lurk--but you know I am lurking!

Kara_Malenfant yes, we'll post a transcript in the next day or two at

http://www.acrl.org/ala/mgrps/divs/acrl/proftools/…

jonstahler That timeline may slip until Monday folks. I've got a busy couple of days ahead of me unfortunately.

dwfree Monday is two business days from now!

beckyalbitz Looks like it is 2:00 eastern, and I am ready if everyone else is

jonstahler but I will do my best to get it online by end of day tomorrow.

marjones Will you send out an email saying it's available or do we need to check back on ~tuesday?

Kara_Malenfant As a reminder, Becky won't be giving a presentation. This is an unmoderated informal chat session to provide you all the opportunity to connect with colleagues on a timely topic.

dwfree You can check the ACRL Insider blog at acrl.ala.org/acrlinsider

beckyalbitz As Kara said, I suggested this topic after Jim Neal and I hosted the discussion about the section 108 study group because, suprisingly, we received many questions/ comments concerning licensing during that conversation.

beckyalbitz So, despite the years that licensed resources have been around, we all still have lots of questions

acclibrarian or we're newbies in the profession! :)

taiya2 or wannabies

beckyalbitz Yes, and we know that licensing is not one of those topics focused on in our educational programs

beckyalbitz nor are there many training opportunities left

spearsg or even some of us are interested iin this area and want to learn as much as we can.

cncihols is there sound or video on this discussion?

bgvalle Does anyone use Verde for licensing?

beckyalbitz Even though we would all hope that the amount of licensing will decrease, with initiatives such as SERU, I don't believe that will be the case.

marjones Or we had a particularly long and painful experience that made me hope for a Better Solution!

Kara_Malenfant Nope, cncihols, it's text only chat

bgulliford We will be using Verde--we're just setting it up.

cncihols :)

guest3163508 we are considering verde for licensing

beckyalbitz do you folks also have ALEPH

spearsg The educational aspect. why is is that there is no real focus when this is becoming more part of our worlflow with electronic dbs ETC?

bgvalle ok, we are going to want to talk more with verde folks later! we're all into set up phase

ahulsebe We aren't using an ERM, but will be looking into some options this year. We have too much e-resource info dispersed in different places.

bgulliford No, not Aleph--Voyager

alanghurst we also have aleph

unlsusan Isn't the real time sucker trying to analzye what "they mean" by those terms?

beckyalbitz I don't know, spearsg. ARL used to have an online workshop that Trisha Davis and I hosted, but they discontinued it a couple of years ago when they restructured.

unlsusan Are you all familiar with the Liblicense website?

spearsg Thats too bad. Seems more is needed.

klaudia52 Yes

gpclement The Florida State University Libraries have gone with most of the Ex Libris projects (Aleph, Digitool, MetaLib, SFX) but we've all dropped Verde in favor of other ERM systems

bgvalle re licensing, how are people handling "course packs" and/or the "no ILL" provisions

beckyalbitz very much agreed. Sorta why I wrote my book

spearsg no I am not familair with liblicence

beckyalbitz no marketing intended :-)

unlsusan Check it out at: http://www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/

alanghurst how do people share specifics of license agreements within their organizations? (with course packs or ILL, for instance)

bgulliford If they say "no coursepacks," we deal with it. We always ask . . .

beckyalbitz liblicense is THE online web site for licensing information

bgvalle we hope to use verde to share the licensing -- that will be our first input and expected output

beckyalbitz Coursepacks may become more of an issue, depending on how the Georgia State/ILL case pans out

bgulliford Right now, in pre-Verde, we just tell the appropriate staff what the restrictions are

alanghurst bgvalle - will you put all license agreement terms in verde? or just selected terms?

unlsusan I think the courses fell by the wayside because many of us had moved on from the beginner stage. If there is still a need then perhaps groups in ALA, NASIG, ER&L could revisit offering basic licensing.

bgvalle how do you communicate the restrictions to the faculty who want to build coursepacks int he learning mangement system

bgvalle verde--yes, we intend to put the license into verde and push out the appropriate pieces to public via SFX

ahulsebe In our pre-ERM state, we have a spreadsheet of licensing info that all staff can access.

beckyalbitz Has anyone been successful in conveying coursepack permissions to those on campus who put together coursepacks?

bgulliford (not my dept) I think we just wait for the request and then tell them no. :-{)}

dlharrington seems like a coordinated effort to communicate to faculty through campus groups/depts is needed

bgvalle we talk to individual faculty re coursepacks, some are good, others hear about it when we give copyright update talks

beckyalbitz Likely they are paying permissions for articles that we have already paid for.

alanghurst we are focusing more on ILL terms now - but still, trying to figure out how to address every single license agreement terms to all interested - without risking make generalizations

marjones ahulsebe, what does that spreadsheet look like?

jpoe we only get to talk to our faculty when they try to put coursepacks into our e-reserve system.

alanghurst bgvalle - have you done any samples in verde to see if using all license agreement fields available works for various agreements?

bgulliford our spreadsheet has several columns for yes/no: coursepack, ILL, classroom distrib., . . .

beckyalbitz Speaking of conveying licensing information--how do you folks handle cease and desists you receive from publishers?

bgvalle no we are just configuring verde but hope to have licenses in by end Dec

alanghurst i've done a view samples, and am intimidated by the number of fields that may not fit every situation - or the amount of time it would take to copy all the information from the agreement into verde

alanghurst few not view - sorry

unlsusan Regarding cease and desists--our campus has an "abuse" officer who investigates activity and counsels the offender.

beckyalbitz Are you involved in the process at all?

spearsg how do they councel the offender?

bgvalle think about what faculty & students would care about coursepacks, sharing with other authorized users, using at conferences, and leave the rest of the licensing fields empty for now

ahulsebe marjones: there is a row for each resource, and columns for authorized users, ILL, perpetual access, etc. Pretty basic.

bgulliford alanghurst--we intimidated too, but just plugged at it with a committee and came up with more & better fields

bgulliford amen to bgvalle

alanghurst bguilliford - were you able to change fields or remove ones you didn't want to use?

ahulsebe Are any of you using an ERM other than Verde?

unlsusan Counseling is an educational effort to explain the terms of the license. Downloading every single article in every single available volume is not usually permitted.

bgulliford it's an excel spreadsheet, not Verde yet, so yes

unlsusan Yes, we have III's ERM in a stand alone situation (Univ atf Buffalo--SUNY)

marjones thanks, ahulsebe--I was wondering if it had to be changed very often, or if the factors had stabilized.

beckyalbitz How successful are they unlsusan?

jpoe I have been pushing for us to subscribe to an ERM, but we just cannot afford it right now. So, I am about to look into using MS Access for our information.

lduggan We are using Serials Solutions 360 Resource Manager at Indiana University - so far in the very early stages of implementation

neliz We also have III's ERM, and are just getting started inputting all of the licensing records.

gpclement We are using Serials Solutions and others in our consoritum are also keeping their eyes on the new EBSCO product

beckyalbitz Do any of you use SIRSI for your ILS?

nge22 We are also using III's ERM (Drexel University)

bgvalle we use sirsi -- ugh

jpoe Has anyone heard when the pricing information will be available for the EBSCO product?

marjones Tarleton State U uses SIRSI.

libdlv Emory Univ. uses SIRSI

lduggan We are a SIRSI site at Indiana University

inquiry3 jpoe, do you have a plan for a specific way of using Access? Will all your info be in a single table?

artadobbs UCONN Health Center is using Meridian

bgvalle Naval Postgraduate School is SIRSI

beckyalbitz Ooh lduggan--how is your Serials Solutions implementation going?

marjones Is that EBSCO Resource Manager?

r3ballard We are using Meridian, the now defunct Endeavor ERMS.

jpoe Inquiry3: no plan at all. i was just told that I would be using it -- hopefully temporarily.

ahulsebe I think it's EBSCO ERM Essentials. We had a demo, but it was more of a PowerPoint presentation because the product wasn't yet available.

jpoe marjones: I think it is EBSCO Resource Manager, but I am not real sure. I was out of town when some of my colleagues went to a presentation about it.

bgvalle how do people post licensing info in Blackboard or Moodle?

lduggan Right now our ERM implementation is on hold due to staffing issues, but we plan on resuming within the coming months - in the interim we have done a thorough investigation of the product

jennifercgordon We had Verde previously, but are not using it any longer. We will be evaluating III, EBSCO's ERM Essentials, and possibly others next year. Right now we have a home-grown ERM (very large Excel spreadsheet). Our ILS is Voyager.

beckyalbitz we don't post licensing info per se on our course management system, but there are supposed to be copyright statements.

marjones jpoe, I have heard good things about using Access for license-management, if that is any consolation. And thanks for the response.

florencye How does the Excel spreadsheet work with so many narrow specifications?

beckyalbitz The library has links built in, and we have a splash screen with some very basic licensing language on it.

stumpffmo We use an access file that was built before I started in Electronic REsouces. Hence, it doesn't get updated as quickly as it should.

beckyalbitz thanks lduggan--we ap Penn State are watching what you folks do!

bgulliford Excel sp.: we don't go into great detail in each product; just a few yes/no features

dlharrington Has anyone held workshops on their campuses to communicate licensing info to faculty developing Course Management System pages?

jpoe marjones, I hope I can get Access to do what I need it to do. I am not expert, so I have to learn it first. It appears that the EBSCO product is EBSCO's ERM Essentials.

bgvalle i just wrote a copyright tutorial to go into the course management system training materials

florencye Our other campus has an excellent Access database, but I can't see it from my campus.

jpoe bgvalle, would you be willing to share your copyright tutorial with me?

lduggan Thanks Becky! We hope to get this rolling soon - we have a lot of info to get in the system!

ahulsebe I believe there is an open source ERM Access system available -- maybe from UW-LaCross? I think it was in a Computers in Libraries article. Has anyone used that?

beckyalbitz bgvalle--how are you going to get people to use it? I find that is the challenge!

bgvalle sure, once the typos are out of it!

inquiry3 Would anyone who uses an Excel spreadsheet (or Access) be willing to share (by e-mail or another method) all the names of the fields of information you collect?

jpoe florencye, do you think your other campus would be willing to discuss their Access database with me?

beckyalbitz Always happy to teach about copyright and licensing, but getting people to listen...

inquiry3 florencye, I would be interested in learning about Access along with jpoe.

bgvalle we have the module as part of our faculty interactive teaching and learning course

unlsusan Inquiry3, we developed a spreadsheet and a data dictionary as part of our ERM implementation process. I'd be happy to share that with you if you email me at ------------------

jennifercgordon inquiry3 - Yes, I would be willing to share a list of the data fields we keep in Excel.

bgvalle can we post some of these great ideas and or our contacts at the end of this transcript?

jennifercgordon If you would like a list of the fields we track, please email me at ----------------------------

bgulliford inquiry3 & jpoe, e me at ----------------- if you want our spreadsheet, FWIW

inquiry3 Great! My e-mail is my handle in here @ yahoo dot com. I will e-mail you after this.

alanghurst how do you input information for tracking? do you just cut and paste directly from the license agreements? or does someone summarize the terms?

florencye My email is -------------------

rkoury100 My predecessor at Idaho State used the fields from DLF ERM report

http://www.diglib.org/pubs/dlf102/.

I can share: ----------------

bgvalle contact my boss, -----------------

bgulliford tracking license info: too big for excel; we are scanning licenses & will put them into Verde

beckyalbitz looks like licensing isn't necessarily the problem anymore--it's managing all of the stuff we have!

jpoe Sorry, someone came into my office, so I had to get caught back up. I will be emailing several of you after the chat. My email is ------------. Thanks all!

florencye I scan and post to an internal Google Sites.

lduggan becky, I think you are absolutely right!

bgvalle yes, there are so many terms and publishers we need to do a better job of sharing terms within library and with our patrons

beckyalbitz is anyone systematically trying to address the issue of content duplications in multiple products (aggregators/publisher sites/etc.)? This is a big issue for us.

florencye Why is it an issue?

bgvalle we are going to explore the new "de-dup" feature in our SFX. I understand Serials Solutions has one too. Problem is who, how , when, and what to do with the info!

beckyalbitz We license a lot of products from muliple aggregators (proquest/ebsco/silverplatter/csa) many of which comes with full-text. Along with that, we have a number of full'text journal packages.

bgulliford that's separate from licensing IMHO--we use a few tools, do a lot of manual comparisons--our patrons, or even staff, don't care where we get stuff from

unlsusan Duplicate content--addressed in various conference programs as "how many times are we paying for this?" We only started to seriously look at this in light of a significant budget cut.

florencye My issue is trying to vendors to respond to my requests. I make a lot of repeated phone calls.

florencye *get

beckyalbitz agreed--it does make a difference when discussing pricing

Kara_Malenfant FYI, if you all want to be in touch to talk about licensing after, you could consider forming an Interest Group within ACRL. Check it out at

http://www.ala.org/ala/mgrps/divs/acrl/resources/p…

bgvalle but can we use the info to leverage negotiations with publshers where much of content is duplicated? sort of licensing related

beckyalbitz Actually, Kara--I was going to suggest that after the copyright discussion group was up and running...

beckyalbitz it is really needed

rkoury100 Kara, Becky, great idea Count me in.

beckyalbitz we leverage duplication when licensing second and third products from the same company. The overlap among their products is usually quite large

unlsusan bgvalle--if you have success in those negotations do share your strategy. Publishers often believe their content is SOOO valuable that you'll pay anything to access it. :)

lduggan I think we pay close attention to content duplication to a point, but are also mindful of instances where content could appear or disappear from an aggregator at any point in time

Kara_Malenfant RIght, Becky, the discussion group is one good place. We also have a new way of organizing wtih interest groups (kind of like a discussion group +)

spearsg Heres something some may think about at least from my perspective. What are some key points to consider when looking at licensing and the language?

beckyalbitz absolutely, lduggan! that's why we have more success negotiating with the aggregators than the publishers

jpoe I would be very interested in the copyright discussion group!

alanghurst do many people have experience negotiating for business resources that don't always seem to recognize academic use?

beckyalbitz The first point I always look for in a license spearsg is to not agree to anything that you can't possibly follow through on

beckyalbitz how's that for lots of negatives!

spearsg got it becky

bgulliford maybe too fine a distinction, but I look at negotiation for content as separate from "licensing" which is more legal, permissions, permitted users, etc. just me

bgvalle i work for a federal library so some of the big kickers for us are indemnity & governance terms

unlsusan Yes, on business resources where academic use not first priority. Big time pain in the butt. They wanted me to cite the laws that prevented us from agreeing to xyz. not easy to do.

neliz I work for a state university library so we must similarly look at whether we can even agree to some of the terms - indemnification, etc.

jonstahler and the spammers are rolling in. Sorry folks.

beckyalbitz can't be helped, jon

alanghurst unlsusan - do you try to get the vendor to insert terms recognizing something like scholarly, research, etc use rather than just "internal use"?

beckyalbitz I am usually able to negotiate the state university issues fairly easily--companies are used to them by now

bgulliford most of our licenses are academic-ish & no problem; but those business sources--whoo

lduggan I've also noticed that Business database providers often send a brand new license every year. I've been successful in a few instances with adding an automatic license renewal clause so we don't have to mess with a new license every year at renewal time.

beckyalbitz people are so much fun, aren't they

beckyalbitz we have that problem with Hoovers

unlsusan We haven't had too much trouble with that language, alanghurst. It's the indemnification that hangs things up most often. Not being able to ILL is not a show stopper for us (at this time). Perpetual access is beoming more important too.

alanghurst unlsusan - not too much issue adding the language? or it isn't a priority?

beckyalbitz how successful with the indemnifications are you unlsusan

unlsusan Some publishers send new licenses every year--Springer, for example. We don't have a package with them.

florencye What are the issues surrounding indemnification?

bgulliford We've gotten language changes/insertions by working through our consortium--when you're bigger, you get heard better

bgvalle the us federal govt cannot indemnify and we must strike the clause--sometimes it kills our ability to license

beckyalbitz if the publisher says that you are to indemnify them, it means that you are legally and financially responsible for defending them

unlsusan alan and becky: indemnification usually ok to simply strike, except for a few databases. We live with mutual indemnification. Internal use language not a real priority.

beckyalbitz for what--it depends on the language

neliz We just tell the publishers that under state law a state university cannot agree to indemnify them. They realize this is a requirement for us to be able to purchase their resources and are usually agreeable

alanghurst what do people do if they can't get a publisher to respond to license revision requests?

bgvalle amen

beckyalbitz we don't license with them

beckyalbitz that is our power

bgulliford we don't license either--but it's rare to get that far; usually if you're persistent, something can be reached

libdlv alanghurst, we consider if the point in question is a show stopper.

alanghurst i've got a couple that just aren't responding to my request at all - hard to know when to give up

unlsusan neliz--that was my point with a business database where they asked me to cite the law. I discovered that our state is willing to be on the hook for up to 1 mil $. The product cost $7500. No way was I going to cite that law.

jennifercgordon Sometimes we have had to cancel a purchase if the publisher/vendor won't agree to negotiate. It hasn't happened too often though.

bgulliford actually we have run into a few brick walls or encountered a couple of really strange cases, so gave up

florencye Our resources are so specialized that we have no choice but to go with their agreement (or lack of an agreement) anyways.

unlsusan And who has time for the continual to and fro ing and follow up to no responses?

beckyalbitz in fact, today I saw a license for a company I tried to negotiate with a couple of years ago. I saw all of the language I suggested (but they wouldn't accept at the time) has now been incorporated! It pays to check back later

bgvalle i have sometimes gone higher in the company to a VP or even an editor--sometimes that gets publishers willing to respond to our changes

bgulliford alanghurst--yes; some of these vendors take months and months just to reply e-mail!

neliz Yes, I suppose with business databases the publishers are a bit more inflexible and less understanding regarding academic institutions

bgulliford who has time: yes--a library management issue (if you really want to spend the time . . .)

jennifercgordon bgulliford, I have found that to be true also. It makes the process take much longer than necessary!

beckyalbitz its funny, the smartest thing a business database provider can do is have your MBA students exposed to their product. Who do they think their future customers will be?

unlsusan I am not a member of ACRL but am an ALCTS member and a NASIG member. I would encourage all of you to check out what these groups have to offer. In many libraries the acquisitions or serials people are the ones doing the license work.

bgulliford some vendors have no experience with academics, and we are foreign animals to them

neliz beckyalbitz - excellent point!

beckyalbitz thank you :-)

unlsusan But the law students are in for a rude awakening after they graduate. :-)

bgulliford jennifer: yep. we just wait, like moray eels :-{)}

alanghurst have many people been using SERU when license agreements are not available/required?

beckyalbitz price-wisse, you bet!

bgvalle it is really nice to hear others have the same issues--no response etc.

beckyalbitz alanghurst--haven't been in a position to do so yet.

bgvalle we signed on to test SERU but have not had a situation to use it yet--have you floated it in a particular instance?

beckyalbitz Most of the publishers I am working with now are small societies who haven't adopted it.

alanghurst i've requested it a couple times - with one agreeing and another agreeing, but not to the whole thing - which was unexpected

unlsusan Small publishers are ripe to be persuaded to use it. We have suggested it on a few occasions. Many say they depend on Ingenta or Atypon's general terms and conditions.

beckyalbitz or highwire (argh!)

bgvalle it would be nice -- so hard for small publishers to deal with our changes and difficult for us to try to work with them since they often go to outside counsel

lduggan How do you go about floating the SERU to a smaill publisher?

beckyalbitz sorry--we can't agree to any license with a site restriction...

bgulliford i simply refuse to license anything with ingenta--exasperated a few years ago

alanghurst a couple smaller publishers seem willing to accept it, but we haven't really gotten to a point were I would be able to find out what would happen if we cancelled - would we really get access after the fact still?

rkoury100 Had anyone successfully negotiated online access for several campuses under single site license and how did you do it? Our distant campuses are tiny and we had hard time explaining this to publishers.

unlsusan Send the link and an explanation of why it's useful. Regaring post-cancellation rights, try to nail them down in an email. You can always append something to your license or SERU.

alanghurst lduggan - i've told them I've used SERU before, given them the URL for their review, and suggested a line that we both agree to SERU on an 1 page access agreement

beckyalbitz Oh rkoury100--I do it all the time!

rkoury100 Would you share?

lduggan rkoury, we do this at Indiana University

beckyalbitz Penn State has 23 locations, and all of our IP addresses are intermingled. We have to!

bgulliford sometimes you win, sometimes you lose with multi-site. more vendors have come around on this

beckyalbitz The key is whether your regionals are actually independent institutions (ala the SUNY schools) or not.

rkoury100 HOW?? For example, OUP Journals?

alanghurst my predecessor had done it that way - so I've tried continuing it

unlsusan What do you mean by several campuses? Do they all report to the same univ. administrator?

lduggan thanks unlsusan and alanghurst!

beckyalbitz You are often not able to license free access with print, I've found.

rkoury100 One main campus and tehn 3 distant centers about 45 min-1 hour away

rkoury100 sorry, "then"

rkoury100 In different cities

rkoury100 Yes, same administrator

beckyalbitz with oup we licensed based on our print subs, although they did allow us to de-dupe, which is the real issue

bgulliford some vendors insist that every building be a different site. usually we look all over for a negotiating technique/way around it

beckyalbitz with remote access, it shouldn't matter where the person sits, as long as they are registered members of the institution

florencye We've had mixed success with the different campuses issue under one administrator.

beckyalbitz that is my argument

unlsusan If campuses under one administrator then try to get that as the defn of a "site"

beckyalbitz or strike the site language.

lduggan The problem with OUP is that they consider multi-campus deals as a consortium, we've run into this

beckyalbitz it took us many years to work it out with them

davis.115.osu If site is a problem, then just use the remote access function. You have to authenticate each time, but it works.

beckyalbitz hi trisha!

unlsusan Do you love the ones with mileage restrictions? ie within 5 miles?

davis.115.osu Hey becky. Took me this long to find the dang room!

beckyalbitz who came up with 5 miles anyway!

beckyalbitz and who is going to measure it!

davis.115.osu Geez, I thought those restrictions were long gone. How archaic!

unlsusan Hey Tricia, I tried to do my best to be the other Davis. :-)

neliz That is a great idea, to just include the multiple locations in the definition of "site." Because I agree, some will agree to view them all as one site and some will not. Seems to come up frequently.

spearsg what was the reasoning behind the milage?

davis.115.osu Be my guest! I was tied up here giving copyright "advice" :D

rkoury100 OK, thank you

bgulliford yes, becky. i feel that they can't visit my campus and see, so technically i *could* tell them anything. i try to be ethical, however

beckyalbitz it is an archaic problem--they are just concerned that you might have multiple print subscriptions, and by licensing teh electronic content they will lose income.

beckyalbitz Yes, bguilliford, never fudge it!

davis.115.osu Not when they base your costs on number of patrons, as you well know.

beckyalbitz Our reputations go a long way to enabling us to negotiate tougher terms

bgulliford becky & neliz: def. of site: yes.

davis.115.osu This is definitely true in most cases.

beckyalbitz Oh my goodness--hard to believe the hour is almost up! Get your last shots in!

marjones gotta go--Ref desk is calling! THANKS to all for an enlightening discussion.

Kara_Malenfant Hey all. Sorry to barge in, but we're closing in on the 1 hr mark. You are all welcome to keep chatting, but I have a couple announcements to throw in as I imagine some of you may have to leave.

Kara_Malenfant Thanks everyone for participating. We'll be putting the transcript of this chat online at

http://www.acrl.org/ala/mgrps/divs/acrl/proftools/…

Look for the announcement about transcript availability at http://www.acrl.ala.org/acrlinsider/

inquiry3 I have to help set up for our evening author event now. I will e-mail you about the Excel/Access fields later today or possibly not until tomorrow morning. Thank you so very much for being willing to share that info!!

bgulliford OK; I go tthe e-mail addresses of the people I'm going to contact :)

spearsg Ive learned much but so much more to learn. A Cataloging Librarian wanting to bust out of her shell.

Kara_Malenfant OK, keep chatting away- I'll go back to being unobtrusive! Sorry for the interruption.

spearsg Thuis was a great informal learning opportunity.

lduggan Great chat.

jpoe Thank you all for the wonderful discussion. I will be emailing a couple of you directly soon. Have a good one!

beckyalbitz I want to thank you all for attending and participating. If Kara and I were to work on an interest group, would you come?

libdlv yes

marjones yes

rkoury100 yes

stumpffmo Yes

lduggan I'd be interested

kmassia yes

r3ballard yes

neliz definitely

LibraryDan Mee too!

florencye Any of you on Second Life?

inquiry3 Yes

beckyalbitz electronic resource librarians are, after all, the most interesting people around!

bgulliford not an acrl member, but I'll find somebody who is :)

spearsg I have noticed!

beckyalbitz you don't have to be a member to attend

ahulsebe yes

lduggan So true Becky!

beckyalbitz :-)

ahulsebe thanks bye

florencye Email me at ------------------- if you're interested in meeting in-world.

Kara_Malenfant Have an idea for a fututre OnPoint Chat?

beckyalbitz Excellent! Kara and I will take a look at what we need to do to get something going!

davis.115.osu Kara - there's a lot of issues surrounding the acquisition of Ebooks.

bgulliford I second that! LOT of issues there . . .

stumpffmo That would be a great topic

lahtisand I would be interested in continuing with the discussion of issues.

lduggan An ebook discussion is a great idea

beckyalbitz indeed

Kara_Malenfant OK. Is there a particular time of year it makes sense to hold a chat on Ebooks?

lahtisand Prior to June 30th would work for me

davis.115.osu I don't think so. We are bombarded with "deals" all the time.

Kara_Malenfant We've got topics for Nov, Jan & Feb. Thought we'd take a break for March (Conf in Seattle and all) Is April or May good?

rkoury100 any time will work for me

bgulliford our contracts negotiated spring & summer, but I'm here all year round

lahtisand Works for me

Kara_Malenfant Any other ideas?

Kara_Malenfant What about open textbooks? OER?

beckyalbitz I need to run--thanks again everyone for attending--this was a great conversation! Don't hesitate to get in touch with me directly if you like--my email is ---------------------

Kara_Malenfant Thanks, Becky! You rock - as always!!!

dwfree Yes, thanks Becky!! Great chat everyone